Nov 27, 2005, 02:21 AM // 02:21
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#2
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There is no spoon.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Netherlands
Profession: Mo/
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ArenaNet tries to improve the social skills from gamers.
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Nov 27, 2005, 02:31 AM // 02:31
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#3
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Krytan Explorer
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Unless I'm playing with my guild, that won't work. All the other PuG's I've joined for that quest couldn't even get the second crystal. =\
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Nov 27, 2005, 03:06 AM // 03:06
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#4
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC, USA
Profession: E/Mo
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Most likely, the reason ANet changed the quest was to promote cooperative gameplay. Yes, the number of districts in Deldrimor War Camp has dwindled, but that still does not mean you should be able to do all the Furnace quests alone. Especially a quest which needs you to split up the party, just like the Dunes of Despair bonus. If you're going to ignore the "protect the NPC" part while focusing on "do something else" part, you should, in my opinion, be penalized.
BTW, my N/Me still needs that quest. PM me if you want to have a go at it together.
Last edited by Shyft the Pyro; Nov 27, 2005 at 04:08 AM // 04:08..
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Nov 27, 2005, 04:02 AM // 04:02
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#5
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2005
Guild: Ogmios Graybeards
Profession: W/
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Hahahahahahaha! That's just good, funny stuff.
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Nov 27, 2005, 06:05 AM // 06:05
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#6
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Banned
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: dayton ohio
Profession: N/Mo
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that mission isnt so hard to do with pugs, a "decent" and i say "decent" cause 90% of wars in the game are not even up to that skill lvl, should be able to protect alkor by themselves, alkor will heal the war protecting him, even if you cant kill the enemies fast, you are just buying time for your teammates
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Nov 27, 2005, 06:09 AM // 06:09
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#7
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Krytan Explorer
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From my experience, splitting up is a bad idea. It's good to have one or two players watch out for patrols, instead of having me drag the henchies back every time I approach a new group, but don't forget that the dredge groups are still pretty big. The point of having someone with Alkar is so the team can be alerted when a patrol appears; having enough players to kill everything that hits Alkar would leave your main group far too weak. So if I'm going back to protect Alkar as often as possible, and that doesn't work, then how would having one extra player with him help at all?
Maybe Alkar has Word of Healing which requires a "target other ally" to use, and he wants that player to take all the damage. I don't know, but making a quest un-henchable is just stupid. Especially considering the quest isn't even worth a whole lot (except for the satisfaction of having the SF quests done). Whoopee, spend an hour to get mediocre experience and crappy drops, where do I sign?
You know, ANet could crack down on REAL soloing (ie high-level-area solo farming) instead of our pseudo-soloing with henchies. Using henchies isn't exploiting anything - we still get crappy drop rates like real groups, and plus we have to command heroes with limited AI (it's something I work around, you can't blame the devs for not designing human-like AI). I really believed the game was supposed to be playable with henchies.
Last edited by Loch; Nov 27, 2005 at 06:38 AM // 06:38..
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Nov 27, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19
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#8
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC, USA
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loch
From my experience, splitting up is a bad idea. It's good to have one or two players watch out for patrols, instead of having me drag the henchies back every time I approach a new group, but don't forget that the dredge groups are still pretty big. The point of having someone with Alkar is so the team can be alerted when a patrol appears; having enough players to kill everything that hits Alkar would leave your main group far too weak. So if I'm going back to protect Alkar as often as possible, and that doesn't work, then how would having one extra player with him help at all?
Maybe Alkar has Word of Healing which requires a "target other ally" to use, and he wants that player to take all the damage. I don't know, but making a quest un-henchable is just stupid. Especially considering the quest isn't even worth a whole lot (except for the satisfaction of having the SF quests done). Whoopee, spend an hour to get mediocre experience and crappy drops, where do I sign?
You know, ANet could crack down on REAL soloing (ie high-level-area solo farming) instead of our pseudo-soloing with henchies. Using henchies isn't exploiting anything - we still get crappy drop rates like real groups, and plus we have to command heroes with limited AI (it's something I work around, you can't blame the devs for not designing human-like AI). I really believed the game was supposed to be playable with henchies.
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While sometimes I may feel the same way as you (especially when I wish to open up all the hidden nooks of EA's) the game was not meant to be played with henchies alone. If it was, there would be an "offline" mode, the way Diablo had, for players who needed no help. Guild Wars was billed as a cooperative online game, and I will welcome any changes that try to reinforce that - even if those changes nerf my ability to hench it up in more places. As is, cooperation in missions is made virtually unnecessary after the desert with the introduction of the second monk there. My N/Me (not a very strong PvE character on its own, as you'll agree) was able to hench through every desert and South Shiverpeaks mission, missing the bonus only on Glint (duh) and Dunes of Despair, where it is necessary for the party to split 4-2 or 5-1 in order to complete it. My E/Mo henched up every desert, South Shiverpeaks, and Ring of Fire mission, missing out only on the above two bonuses. I'm pretty sure that when my R/W gets to the desert, she will have just as smooth a sailing as the previous two. Again, I love the fact that I can succeed on a tough mission alone rather than be brought down by impatient noobs, but I don't think this should be a case everywhere.
Sorrow's Furnace was supposed to offer increased challenge to ascended players, even if ascension was not necessary for entry; I took that to mean that greater cooperation would be required to complete the quests. In my opinion, the Furnace quests are listed in the quest log in order of increasing difficulty. Galen Trask may be a joke to hench, and only detrimental because it is time-consuming, but Killroy takes more effort, as if you don't know ahead of time the targets he will charge you need to aim henchies on the fly to keep up with him. Alkar and Orozar, then, represent a greater degree of cooperation expected from the players - at least if done precisely as intended and not through various player-introduced exploits.
And just to be clear, by "splitting up" I did not mean leaving half the party with Alkar. There are, however, proper strategies for killing off each wave of three attackers on Alkar before the next one can come up (which incidentally is exactly identical to the tactics Forgotten and Enchanted use when attacking Ghostly Hero in Dunes of Despair). Real soloing was nerfed/is being nerfed/will be nerfed further. But henchman AI is superior to player intelligence in that it cooperates to the extreme. I see player cooperation as something that GW designers wish to encourage, and introducing quests where players have to work together instead of relying on the unflinching cooperation of henchmen is, in my opinion, a good thing.
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Nov 27, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56
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#9
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Krytan Explorer
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Well, I agree that requiring more cooperation from players can only be a good thing considering how easy PvE is. C'mon, Thunderhead Keep is a complete joke with henchmen, and this is supposed to be a tough mission.
It's just that when I'm not PvP'ing, I enjoy going out to Sorrow's Furnace with henchmen at my own pace. The rewards for doing so aren't spectacular. I still get terrible drops just like any other 8-player team, plus it takes longer because henchies don't employ skillsets that maximize their performance. The quests don't even offer a whole lot; doing a quest for an hour doesn't net me near the amount of experience that the Underworld or Fissure of Woe does (then again, those places require a fee to enter and the arbitrary Favor system). I figured this was okay, since these quests at least allowed me to use henchmen and play at my leisure.
But not anymore. I thought henching was supposed to be a legitimate way of playing SF, but apparently not. I guess I'll just have to find a few half-decent players. We know that won't happen in the War Camp, so it's either guildmates or just skipping PvE altogether.
Actually, Pyro, what's your IGN? I'd be more than happy to give that quest a shot with you. Especially since you actually understand the importance of teamwork.
Last edited by Loch; Nov 27, 2005 at 04:59 PM // 16:59..
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Nov 28, 2005, 11:40 PM // 23:40
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#10
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cali!!!
Guild: cdxx/the420th.com
Profession: Mo/N
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well it can be done with henchies, i just did it last night with a ranger(me) a monk(guildmate)war(pug) and the rest henchies! the trick is when you split up to take the dredges, leave a ranger who traps with the priest trap the top of the stairs the top not the middle, you want to by time for your team to provide backup. i brought 3 traps, spike,barbed,& dust trapped the shit out of the stairs also hopefully your ranger will bring poison and a interupt, you should be ok!! Its been done!! Actually it seems easier now than before!!
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Nov 28, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48
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#11
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Grimsby, UK
Profession: R/
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I was going to suggest that you pull the groups towrds the priest before you kill them...but alas, i remembered the AI change that stops them following you.
lol.
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Nov 29, 2005, 01:39 PM // 13:39
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#12
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: The Stompers.
Profession: R/Mo
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I just got to Sorrow's Furnace for the first time about 30 minutes ago. That quest was the first one I tried, I managed to get 3 crystalines then on the fourth the priest got killed.
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Nov 29, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15
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#13
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC, USA
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loch
Well, I agree that requiring more cooperation from players can only be a good thing considering how easy PvE is. C'mon, Thunderhead Keep is a complete joke with henchmen, and this is supposed to be a tough mission.
It's just that when I'm not PvP'ing, I enjoy going out to Sorrow's Furnace with henchmen at my own pace. The rewards for doing so aren't spectacular. I still get terrible drops just like any other 8-player team, plus it takes longer because henchies don't employ skillsets that maximize their performance. The quests don't even offer a whole lot; doing a quest for an hour doesn't net me near the amount of experience that the Underworld or Fissure of Woe does (then again, those places require a fee to enter and the arbitrary Favor system). I figured this was okay, since these quests at least allowed me to use henchmen and play at my leisure.
But not anymore. I thought henching was supposed to be a legitimate way of playing SF, but apparently not. I guess I'll just have to find a few half-decent players. We know that won't happen in the War Camp, so it's either guildmates or just skipping PvE altogether.
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You can still do the "easy" SF quests with henchies. Galen Trask and Killroy Stoneskin are pretty good in terms of XP - first one because of the ease, second because of the speed - but neither really lets you to kill those nice SF bosses everyone's after. I find 5 man Orozar farming groups the best for gaining late-game XP, short of the Titan quests of course. Problem is that not everyone can get into such a group, which usually means anyone other than 1 gear tank, 2 monks, 1 minion necro and 1 nuker/spiteful spirit spammer necro has to sit it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4runner
well it can be done with henchies, i just did it last night with a ranger(me) a monk(guildmate)war(pug) and the rest henchies! the trick is when you split up to take the dredges, leave a ranger who traps with the priest trap the top of the stairs the top not the middle, you want to by time for your team to provide backup. i brought 3 traps, spike,barbed,& dust trapped the shit out of the stairs also hopefully your ranger will bring poison and a interupt, you should be ok!! Its been done!! Actually it seems easier now than before!!
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Loch's whole point was to do the quest without any human assistance, with 7 henchies in the party. What you did was prove that when you split up the party, the quest can be accomplished as intended by game designers. Henchmen AI, however, prevents one of them from staying behind and protecting Alkar while you take the rest on your crystal hunt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guild Wars Junkie
I just got to Sorrow's Furnace for the first time about 30 minutes ago. That quest was the first one I tried, I managed to get 3 crystalines then on the fourth the priest got killed.
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If you're going to go into SF alone, try Galen Trask first. Besides being the easiest, that quest gives a lot of hidden background information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loch
Actually, Pyro, what's your IGN? I'd be more than happy to give that quest a shot with you. Especially since you actually understand the importance of teamwork.
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<---- Though my primary character is listed, my N/Me is the one that needs the quest. Its IGN is "A Little Death" but I don't think I'll be able to play GW until Thursday night (college + last 2 weeks of classes = ) However, my Fridays are free, and I should be available this Saturday as well. I'll drop you a PM just in case you're not watching this thread.
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Nov 29, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50
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#14
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cali!!!
Guild: cdxx/the420th.com
Profession: Mo/N
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y
Loch's whole point was to do the quest without any human assistance, with 7 henchies in the party. What you did was prove that when you split up the party, the quest can be accomplished as intended by game designers. Henchmen AI, however, prevents one of them from staying behind and protecting Alkar while you take the rest on your crystal hunt.
Yah i kinda figure that after posting!!!!
Humbly,
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Nov 30, 2005, 06:33 PM // 18:33
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#15
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: at the beach
Guild: Gamerzunlimited (GU)
Profession: R/
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I tried this one about one weeek ago, with all henchies, got two crystals and then
the king died, I have an idea for this, just have not had time to try it out.
The patrols that attack the king are (I believe) triggered by either you moving so far
from the king or starting a fight. When the henchies and I went up the stairs to get
the crystal at the top, about halfway thru the fight the king got attacked, we ran
back killed off the mob and then went back up and finshed off the rest of the pack
and got the crystal and the king was not attacked again, until we moved towards the
other crystal, we only went so far then the king got attacked ran back killed the mob
and then went after the crystal, the third one was a little to far or I went to far and
did not get back in time and the king died, but I think this is doable with henchies,
just need to figure out exactly when and how the mobs are triggered.
Sirshadowrunner
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Nov 30, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23
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#16
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC, USA
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirShadowrunner
I tried this one about one weeek ago, with all henchies, got two crystals and then the king died, I have an idea for this, just have not had time to try it out.
The patrols that attack the king are (I believe) triggered by either you moving so far from the king or starting a fight. When the henchies and I went up the stairs to get the crystal at the top, about halfway thru the fight the king got attacked, we ran back killed off the mob and then went back up and finshed off the rest of the pack and got the crystal and the king was not attacked again, until we moved towards the other crystal, we only went so far then the king got attacked ran back killed the mob and then went after the crystal, the third one was a little to far or I went to far and did not get back in time and the king died, but I think this is doable with henchies, just need to figure out exactly when and how the mobs are triggered.
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First off, he's not a king. You're doing the High Priest Alkar quest, you know Second, the best way to know exactly when the mobs trigger would be to keep one character next to Alkar - which would defeat the whole purpose of both doing the quest alone and timing the mobs.
Most likely, the mobs trigger the same way Ettins come out of the zone point west of Ascalon Settlement. If you've ever done The Last Hog quest to chase a Prize-Winning Hog back to Farmer Dirk, you might have noticed a couple of Ettins come from the north even if you cleared the way previously. The secret is that there are multiple Ettins that spawn beyond the zone point, and come out when your characters pass a certain point on the path from Lion's Arch to Ascalon Settlement. If you go directly north from Lion's Arch, trek through the swamp and arrive in Ascalon Settlement by walking westward on the beach, all the Ettins will still be "inside" the zone point, even though they will show up on radar and screen. Just as with Alkar, it would be impossible to pinpoint the precise moment the first few Ettins "enter" the zone without leaving someone behind to actually watch them.
If you have enough time and similarly-minded guildies, though, more power to you. Let us know how your testing goes
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Nov 30, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32
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#17
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Pre-Searing Cadet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loch
Well, I agree that requiring more cooperation from players can only be a good thing considering how easy PvE is. C'mon, Thunderhead Keep is a complete joke with henchmen, and this is supposed to be a tough mission.
It's just that when I'm not PvP'ing, I enjoy going out to Sorrow's Furnace with henchmen at my own pace. The rewards for doing so aren't spectacular. I still get terrible drops just like any other 8-player team, plus it takes longer because henchies don't employ skillsets that maximize their performance. The quests don't even offer a whole lot; doing a quest for an hour doesn't net me near the amount of experience that the Underworld or Fissure of Woe does (then again, those places require a fee to enter and the arbitrary Favor system). I figured this was okay, since these quests at least allowed me to use henchmen and play at my leisure.
But not anymore. I thought henching was supposed to be a legitimate way of playing SF, but apparently not. I guess I'll just have to find a few half-decent players. We know that won't happen in the War Camp, so it's either guildmates or just skipping PvE altogether.
Actually, Pyro, what's your IGN? I'd be more than happy to give that quest a shot with you. Especially since you actually understand the importance of teamwork.
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I have done all of the SF quests with henchmen except for the Priest quest. I am a minion necro so that helps a lot. I got 3 crystals the last time and then he died. I think they send down two patrols for each group you fight. One gets sent when you first agro the groups, the second comes when you either agro the crystal holder or kill him. I think I can do it the next time successfully. When you said Thunderhead was a joke with henchmen were you saying it was hard or easy? I did it 2 for 2 with henchmen with my minion necro.
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Dec 01, 2005, 02:55 AM // 02:55
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#18
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Desert Nomad
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Better read the box again if you don't think the game was meant to be played with henchies. It specifically states that it is and can be.
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Dec 01, 2005, 03:21 AM // 03:21
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#19
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Arctic Tundra
Guild: Pints N Quarts [PsQs]
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it's true that you get at least 2 spawns per group you fight away from the altar....
you trigger the first one by aggroing: 2nd one on defeat... or crystal drop. the sick thing is the increasing distance...
i had the last crystal almost there when i realised i should have ran without it.
tough luck ,)
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Dec 01, 2005, 04:41 AM // 04:41
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#20
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC, USA
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sonya
Better read the box again if you don't think the game was meant to be played with henchies. It specifically states that it is and can be.
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That, in my opinion, refers only to completing the game. As in doing all 24 missions without player assistance, which is ridiculously easy.
The information on the box is static while the game is dynamic, changed constantly by play patters (farming patches anyone?) and the desire for increased challenges. Personally, I believe that the "extra" content added for ascended characters is explicitly aimed to promote cooperative gameplay. The reason you cannot enter Fissure or Underworld with henchies is the same reason a fresh post-searing character should have trouble with Charr warbands: you need player cooperation to make the most of the game.
If Guild Wars was not about human contact - the way such games were ten years ago - we'd all be playing an offline version right now.
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